Comments on Legion Abstract: Legion of Super-Heroes analysis and commentary: Continuity Notes: The Lightning Saga

There's no reason that can't be the way DC figures...

2008-08-18T13:59:00.000-04:00

There's no reason that can't be the way DC figures it. I just don't think that's the way DC figures it. Opens up quite a few cans of worms.

My interpretation of this mess is the following: C...

2008-08-18T13:44:00.000-04:00

My interpretation of this mess is the following: Crisis didn't wipe out all parallel earths and now there are more than 52 earths.

We have

-The original Legion (from Earth-1, since it was Superboy from that earthswho interacted with them)
-Post crisis Legion (from Earth-AC --After Crisis, as I call it--, who interacted with Pocket Universe Superboy and who's timeline "ended" in zero hour)
-Post Zero Hour Legion (From Earth-247, so all time travels were dimensional as well)
-Threeboot Legion (my guess is that it's yet another parallel Earth, and Supergirl traveled dimensionally)
-Lightning Saga Legion (the new Earth-AC future or yet another Earth)

This whole mess gives us

-Mon-El from Earth-1 Daxam
-Lar Gand (Valor - Mon-El) from Earth-AC Daxam
-Lar Gand (Valor - Mon-El) from the Pocket Universe Daxam
-Lar Gand (Valor - Mon-El - M'onel) from Earth 247 Daxam
-Mon-El from Threeboot Daxam
-Mon-El from Lightning Saga Daxam

And I think that no Legion version replaces any other one of them

please e-mail me if you want to compare notes

Gonzalo Castellón, from Chile
tiotalo@gmail.com

You know what? I've never read it.Neat, though. I ...

2008-07-03T22:08:00.000-04:00

You know what? I've never read it.

Neat, though. I wonder if, somewhere along the line, we're going to see Superboy's Legion again.

Just read the KC trade for the umpteenth time... a...

2008-07-03T21:39:00.000-04:00

Just read the KC trade for the umpteenth time... and I noticed some ubiquitous characters in P.44, where Kon-El & Matrix led... the SW6 batch. Visibly seen are Dragonmage, Catspaw, SW6 versions of Tenzil & Dirk, who were never heroes in the Reboot, Ayla, Ferro, Nura, and Thom in their SW6 costumes... and it looks like adult Timber Wolf's joined them too. A bit niffy for Waid, giving tribute to short-lived plot devices.

Now that you mention it, yes.What I meant was, if ...

2008-04-24T19:24:00.000-04:00

Now that you mention it, yes.

What I meant was, if writers are making a decision about something for the sake of their story, then (if they succeed) at least that decision will help produce a good story. Which is what I want. If a committee of editors makes a decision, it's not always for the sake of a story, and may be detrimental to the stories.

I think that's what I meant. Or, maybe: writers can win the battle and lose the war, or lose the battle and win the war, or whatever... but editors can give away the battle for the sake of a whole different war that we don't care about.

"DC Editorial making editorial decisions for the l...

2008-04-24T11:01:00.000-04:00

"DC Editorial making editorial decisions for the long term is quite another."

But... isn't that what they're supposed to do?

Oh, look: comments that have been sitting around f...

2007-07-20T11:13:00.000-04:00

Oh, look: comments that have been sitting around for a while because I haven't checked the older articles recently.

Harvey: Thanks.

Zeb: Oh, threeboot Vi is quite different from original Vi. The original Violet was tough and bitter for some very good reasons. Threeboot Vi hasn't been through anything like that; she's just putting on attitude because she wants to be a badass.

And I'd buy that anthology book. I've even got a title for them: Comic Book Designed Expressly For Matthew. But I don't see it happening.

Kid Anomaly: It's hard to figure what they're going to do. I can be happy with just about any Legion as long as it's at least a halfway decent comic book, but I still miss previous versions. But that's me. I wouldn't tell any other Legion fan to just sit down and be happy that there are Legion comics at all, because we want what we want, and why shouldn't we? We can want anything we want to want.

i love the current Waid/Kitson version, but i'm wo...

2007-07-10T00:31:00.000-04:00

i love the current Waid/Kitson version, but i'm worried that DC might end this Legion because so far the response to the new/old Legion from the Lightning Saga has been mostly positive.

..and DC apparently listens to postings on its message boards..(as evidenced by the change in storytelling direction hinted at in Supergirl 19; no more Supergirl-with-issues, just Superman-girl-version-Supergirl)

..or should legion fans just stop worrying about which version is up there, just so long as the Legion (in whatever shape or form) is kept in circulation?

I think you managed to write everything I've been ...

2007-07-03T14:11:00.000-04:00

I think you managed to write everything I've been thinking since this crossover started...it's kind of strange, really.

But yeah...I'm totally with you. Over the years I've managed to read all the various legions, some I've loved, others not so much...but each legion has been fantastic in its own way.

For example, I LOVED Sensor from the post-ZH Legion while I only tolerated Dream Girl. I know I'm in the minority on that one though.

Similarly, I adored the path Shrinking Violet of the Levitz/Giffen took to get to the tough, take-no-prisoners character she eventually became. That was just not available in any other Legion incarnation (the Waid version comes close, but she's too much of a cypher)

But yeah...I'm very suspicious of this particular Legion. I like the idea of it...but I'm not sure I'll enjoy the execution, especially in light of the fact that this is a stylized Legion for the "purists". They've tried to hit all the "cool" buttons: Sensor Girl at the same time as Karate Kid, Dawny and a Wildfire who is linked to the present-DCU, etc...) And it just rings kind of false to me.

I'm probably overthinking and I should just enjoy this Legion for what it is...but what I really want is a Legion book that revolves around ALL the legions. An anthology book if it comes to that with each arc focusing on another Legion incarnation. You can introduce people to all the characters over the years...and it would satisfy everyone. Who knows...with the "best shape the comics industry is in since the early 90s" we could even have two legion books again.

One can hope...

(Sorry about being all over the place...my brain doesn't really know when to stop and I just let it go where it wants ;) )

Head...spinning...continuity...convolutions...losi...

2007-06-26T12:00:00.000-04:00

Head...spinning...continuity...convolutions...losing...consciousness...

"It is in DC’s financial interest to hold continuity resolutions over our heads. We won’t always pay for action, for fun, for good writing, for good art, for good characterization… but we’re suckers for continuity mechanics."

Truer words have never been written in the comic blogosphere. Preach on, my brother. Preach on.

I'd also like to commend your commenters here -- a...

2007-06-11T12:29:00.000-04:00

I'd also like to commend your commenters here -- all of these responses have been well-written and had some thought put into them. That's refreshing to see. :)

I know! For some reason it's always been like that around here. And don't think I don't appreciate it.

Great post, Matthew, thank you. I'd been thinking...

2007-06-11T12:00:00.000-04:00

Great post, Matthew, thank you. I'd been thinking about this topic when I found your post, and reading it made me write up one of my own, though it went in a bit of a different direction than I'd intended.

I'd also like to commend your commenters here -- all of these responses have been well-written and had some thought put into them. That's refreshing to see. :)

I think the Waid/Kitson Legion is quite underrated...

2007-06-11T11:25:00.000-04:00

I think the Waid/Kitson Legion is quite underrated. I'm not sure Waid got everything out of them that he could have, but it's a great group of characters who are just waiting to have some great stories told about them.

Not that the original Legionnaires aren't great characters, but... the prospect of reading a regular comic about the 2x+unboot Legion reminds me a lot of the new [i]Infinity Inc.[/i], which I will not be picking up, no matter how much I was a fan of the original I-Inc. in the '80s...

Great post.I haven't been quite as excited as some...

2007-06-10T05:50:00.000-04:00

Great post.

I haven't been quite as excited as some to see the Original (or nearly original) Legion return because, to be honest, I really like the Waid/Kitson reboot.

It took a lot of elements I liked about the original and added a "Magnus: Robot Fighter" vibe in having the heroes act as catalysts for a corrupt, sedentary society.

Plus, it featured a Supergirl I could get behind.

And I do suspect that you're right about DC's motivation regarding this New/Old Legion, as many of their comics these days seemed geared toward 30-40 year old fanboys who don't mind seeing old favorites in more "realistic" (i.e. lots of dismemberment) settings.

I can't quite grasp how you can view this new what...

2007-06-07T10:02:00.000-04:00

I can't quite grasp how you can view this new whatever-the-term Legion as both a sign of hope and a sign of "pandering."

It wouldn't be the first time that an unwelcome or ill-advised change to a Legion comic produced good comics. I'd put both reboots in that category. I don't know. Maybe it isn't pandering, although it looks to me like it might be. As for the hope, anytime DC pays attention to the Legion it's a sign of hope.

They're never going to bring back any Legion based exactly upon any past template, and we'd be foolish to expect it.

I expect nothing. I'd like them to bring back all the past versions of the Legion, but I have no idea what they're going to do, or how well.

I find the idea of TPTB intending us to buy issues to keep up with continuity to be ... well, a sign of a cynicism I haven't seen from you.

I guess it does sound kind of cynical, but come on: you can't deny that many comics fans find the continuity questions endlessly fascinating, and I'm sure DC has noticed that that stuff sells. Calling that observation cynical, I suspect, is caused by a hidden assumption that that stuff shouldn't sell well (unless the story had other good qualities, of course), and I haven't thought about that hard enough to agree or disagree.

It's also a bit of projection, methinks.

Hey, I'm not getting Countdown; say that for me at least.

As for the emotional investment thing... when I posted this article, I hadn't thought through that aspect of things. Of course, what's happened here is that many Legion fans have found that the emotional investment they had in the original Legion will translate over to this new Legion, and that's why they're into it. Meanwhile, I've been promiscuously moving my emotional investment between the original, 5YL, SW6, reboot, threeboot and animated Legions, and can't see why this new one should be regarded as so much more special than any of those. So I'm looking at these seven 2x+unboot Legionnaires as all-new, but that's not a disadvantage for me; I accept all-new Legions all the time. Still, it leads to cognitive dissonance when I talk to Legion fans who click with them like they were the originals.

Amigo mio, there hasn't been any Dawnstar worth her name since Levitz. Period.

No argument. I probably just wasn't saying it strongly enough for you, which is understandable; I like Dawny, but nowhere near as much as you do. (If I had to choose between the two, I'd probably rather have Shikari on the team.)

Your thoughts are intriguing, Matthew, though I ca...

2007-06-07T05:19:00.000-04:00

Your thoughts are intriguing, Matthew, though I can't quite grasp how you can view this new whatever-the-term Legion as both a sign of hope and a sign of "pandering."

They're never going to bring back any Legion based exactly upon any past template, and we'd be foolish to expect it. Storytelling passions and artists' enthusiasms change, if nothing else. Short of Levitz himself returning as writer — one of the few over-the-decades possibilities, though utterly unlikely — they're never going to recur in an exact pattern.

I find the idea of TPTB intending us to buy issues to keep up with continuity to be ... well, a sign of a cynicism I haven't seen from you. It's also a bit of projection, methinks.

That fans want continuity resolutions — or that creators are also fans themselves, who also want such resolutions — doesn't mean they're going to happen. Or even be strongly considered. They have to deal with the mechanics of publishing a book each month, at least until a title is restarted *sigh* ... and I've long thought that "having its continuity right" always fails against "having it to the printer by Tuesday."

I'm sticking with the sign-of-hope idea. Some lovely elements can return, even if for a few moments.

Such as two wings:

That's the problem with any reboot: Can you regard the rebooted characters as the same characters, or are they all-new? Can you carry over your emotional investment?

I can. And I do. (You've been warned: Unabashed emotion and incredible debating wordiness in that thread.)

[...] of course there hasn't been a proper Dawnstar since Levitz.

Amigo mio, there hasn't been any Dawnstar worth her name since Levitz. Period. Not in a story that's meant to persist. (My preferred term to the over-laden concept of "continuity.") Not a Dawny who hasn't been mutilated, a hallucination, a reminiscence, or a whisper of a momentary crossover of some kind.

That makes this all the more vivid. For me, anyway. I confess to being a Dawny fan above all, and a Legion fan just below that ... very close, but not identical, passions.

Spiritually yes.There's the difference, I guess. I...

2007-06-06T09:26:00.000-04:00

Spiritually yes.

There's the difference, I guess. I don't see that at all. I'm not saying that this Legion is bereft of soul or anything; I'm just saying that we haven't seen enough of them to know anything yet about whether they're true to the original Legion's spirit or not (although Superman's feelings toward them are clearly true to that spirit. But we're not talking about Superman here). I think people are seeing what they want to see.

ComicGeek: No, I understand. No slight was perceived.

Yeah I guess I should change that. When I started...

2007-06-06T01:03:00.000-04:00

Yeah I guess I should change that. When I started this little endeavor, the comic blogosphere seemed constrictingly small. In 2 short weeks, I have realized it is HUGE and ever expanding.

No slight meant to anyone, it was more my personal ignorance when approaching a new world, than anything anyone else did.

Spiritually yes.They seem a little sad. But if yo...

2007-06-06T00:08:00.000-04:00

Spiritually yes.

They seem a little sad. But if you think one of you might die, I can see it.

Karate Kid seems different, but isn't hurt by it, I've liked him in all the versions (even Waid's). Maybe more, he could be a little macho for someone you would think was a zen master in the 70's.

Wildfire is the same.

Starboy is nuts, but that's ok.

Dawnstar has always seemed moody to me, so check on the sameness. And she evidently has a lost love or problems with Drake formlessness on her mind.

Dream Girl seems different, but she wasn't used a whole lot in the 70/80's legion in my memory. I remember her better from Silver Age reprints than I do the later legion. Really any quibble I have with her is using terms like "dreaming." No Morrison references for her.

Projectra/Sensor Girl - Haven't seen enough to say so far. Though why is she wearing the Sensor Girl outfit?

Timber Wolf seems the same.

I haven't reread those issues in a long time. Maybe it is memory, but even with the slow pacing of this crossover I feel we've seen more details about these guys than in 30 issues of the Waid legion. And I really hate Waid's world.

I could have lived with the Archie legion no problem, although subjecting earth to that "alien" infestation seemed kind of silly.

The Legion's earth needs to stay bright and shiny. No more asteroid belts or mucus filled aliens engulfing it. It's okay to threaten it, but you will never succeed.

Maybe Waid has good characterization. I don't think so, but maybe I'm prejudiced.

Because I don't like his legionaires. They are just not likeable to me. This is the first Ultra Boy that hasn't been a favorite of mine.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

Just out of curiosity... do you think the '70s-'80...

2007-06-05T22:17:00.000-04:00

Just out of curiosity... do you think the '70s-'80s Legion has come back, in the pages of JLA and JSA?

I guess I was being facetious. But I really, real...

2007-06-05T21:01:00.000-04:00

I guess I was being facetious. But I really, really want the 70/80's Legion to come back. It doesn't have to be a continuity handover, but I want Brainiac 5 to quit chewing on people's heads, Cosmic Boy to relinquish the spotlight.

And some of those romances to come back. Beach blanket bingo can get old.

Well, I showed you my reasoning about the characte...

2007-06-05T14:37:00.000-04:00

Well, I showed you my reasoning about the characterization(in that link in my previous comment); you can accept it or not as you like.

(As for this Phantom Girl, I always assumed that many of the quotidian aspects of life required her to be completely present in one world or the other, which she's perfectly capable of.)

Just one more thing. Have you thought through Pha...

2007-06-05T14:24:00.000-04:00

Just one more thing. Have you thought through Phantom Girl's apparent existence?

Does she take a shower in some universe, then squat to take a dump, while flashes of this show through to another universe to an observer's alternate interest and horror?

Does she ride a spaceship in one universe and stare out a viewport, while in another you might catch a glimpse of her sitting on a nonexistent support travelling through space at stupendous speed?

What happens when she goes through any sort of transportational portal?

And do not get me started on Triplicate Girl.

You are seeing something with these characters I'm...

2007-06-05T14:12:00.000-04:00

You are seeing something with these characters I'm not.

I've read all thirty issues. I've reread maybe four or five of those.

Once.

Maybe all writing is akin to tarot cards lying on a table, and you read your own meaning in it.

When I see those cards, I just don't care to know anything they have to reveal.

I used to think Waid was the main guy behind Kingdom Come. I've since read that was mostly a Ross thing.

Now I think Waid has had one good run on the Flash, and that's pretty much it for his accomplishments.

Opinions are like you-know-what, but if I see Waid is writing something now I think "Wonder if that is going to be any good? Maybe, I guess."

doublechinner wrote: that enthusiasm is based on a...

2007-06-05T13:45:00.000-04:00

doublechinner wrote: that enthusiasm is based on a hope that characters who LOOK like the old ones will actually BE like the old ones

Yes, true, although a lot of people seem to regard that as a fait accompli. I think it's actually quite *unlikely* that the 2x+unboot Legion will, given greater exposure, prove to... what? 'taste'? ... taste like the original Legion, simply because Paul Levitz had a very definite style, and it's not a style like anybody's using today. You really can't go home again.

I think A LOT of the excitement is predicated on the presence of beloved characters that we really haven't seen in a long time: Wildfire, Dawnstar, Sensor Girl and Timber Wolf.

That's the problem with any reboot: can you regard the rebooted characters as the same characters, or are they all-new? Can you carry over your emotional investment? I don't think there's any more of a problem with Wildfire or Timber Wolf than there is for Cosmic Boy or Saturn Girl. I'll give you Sensor Girl because of how *much* she was changed in the reboot, and Dawnstar because of course there hasn't been a proper Dawnstar since Levitz.

Also, I don't think you can underestimate the power of the Legion as Superman's boyhood friends.

I'm not underestimating it. I'm just saying that it's got nothing to do with which version of the Legion we're talking about. If Johns and Meltzer had wanted to use the threeboot Legion in their crossover, and made *them* Superman's boyhood friends, I'm sure they could have made it work and DC would have let them.
(And I don't think the JLA/JSA stuff is too sentimental. I like it like that.)

Every month, I grow less certain I want to spend money on the 3boot, partly because I don't know if it is worth reading about characters who may not be around much longer.

Oh, I think they'll be around for a while. DC does seem to have a notion of how they want all this to fit together, and they are using the threeboot Legion in titles like The Brave and the Bold. But even if they weren't, I'd have a different reaction from you: if I thought there were only going to be three issues left for the threeboot, or whatever, I'd make damn sure I picked up every one of them. Because I'd miss them, more is better, and forever is a long time.

Thanks for your comment; some good points.

anonymous wrote: What exactly is the alternative?

I don't know. The alternative to what? In general, when it comes to Legion storytelling, I'd say that there are infinite alternatives. It's wide open. DC can tell whatever stories they want, and if they're good enough, possibly with a famous creative team, those stories will succeed both artistically and in the marketplace. There's no essential restriction about which version of the Legion they need to use. Anything can be made to work.

Let's say a different writer comes aboard that is a great writer. He would have to be truly great to make much of Waid's characters and 31st century. It leaves me cold, and I haven't seen much evidence on the internet that many feel differently.

Many do feel differently. I've seen lots of good reviews on the 'net for the threeboot Legion, and the book is after all selling better than the DnA Legion ever did. For whatever that's worth.

But I really disagree that a great writer would have difficulty making much of these characters and this setting. For several reasons. First, Waid has done a good job of keeping the toys in the box. Much better than Giffen and the Bierbaums did Five Years Later. The threeboot Legion has a stable roster, but it'd be easy for a new writer to add more members (drawing from the ranks of the legionnaires, Terror Firma, or the Wanderers). They're getting a new leader and a new HQ, but the new writer is going to be able to handle that however he wants. The new writer can keep Supergirl or send her back; cure Mon-El or keep him on ice. None of the Legionnaires have been killed or ruined.

Second, the characterization of the Legionnaires is beyond anything else that's been attempted with them before, and any writer who can't do something interesting with them isn't trying.

Third, the famous generation-gap part of the premise of Waid's run has run itself down: after all the changes that have happened on Earth and after the Legion has covered itself in glory saving the world a couple of times, nothing could be more plausible than that the new writer simply not use the eat-it-Grandpa conflict anymore. Because nobody would be thinking like that after all this! By now, the Legion almost certainly has the same status in 31st-century society that it's had in previous versions. And notice that at no time did Waid's fingers ever leave his hand.

I mean, if you don't like it, nobody's gonna stop you. But Waid has left things in good shape for a new writer.

I hope they do bring back the originals, at least the setting and how they were portrayed in the 70's. You can alter the characters with development, you don't have to slavishly continue something.

I miss the characters from previous versions, including how their histories got them to where they were, but I don't really miss the eras themselves. I'd like to see the stories of the 5YL, SW6 and DnA Legions continued, but I don't need to go back to anything that the Legion itself has already moved past, if that makes any sense.

I would like to see Ferro Lad and Chemical King. It always irked me that the Legionaires that most intrigued me were dead or got little exposure. Ditto for Blok, Tellus, Quislet, and even Tyroc.

Always a big problem for the Legion: there are more good characters than there's room to focus on them.